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MCSE, what is it now??? Part 1. 1. MCSE Certification discussion (from online discussion at CramSession.com) (read below) 2. MCSE Certification discussion (from TechRepublic online discussion) (Part 2)
We decided to present you this discussion because it is very educational to learn what your peers think about certifications based on their own experience (good or bad). Be patient, and read everything. Make your own decision! Note: the discussion below was not edited (spell or syntax could be wrong) Also, read the article of Ben Ice, Editor of The Cert Times: "Bill Gates: Eleven things they did not and will not learn in school MCSE, what is it now??? I've got a bad feeling about it! And some question as well... Could anyone tell me what are the REAL benefits of it? Did anybody of you got any satisfaction from this cert... any goodies... well, just something except a bloody ugly label pin you can give to your 2 year's old brother! (If he accept it). I'm simply disappointed with it; this cert doesn't mean much of something to me anymore... What about you? Thanks for your time and open minds! deen0 You know, one of the best ways I have found to getting your foot in the door and moving up (though it is a slow route and a hard one to boot) is to get a job at a help desk. I worked for Stream International (big help desk company) for a while. Horrid job but eventually I got off the phones and into the server room. Basically did the crap jobs know one else wanted to do and didn't make any more money but a year at that and I was able to land a job at the local school district as a tech fixing computers and doing some work on the network? Of course my certifications helped me to get my foot into he door, but like any career you need experience. A doctor might have a license to practice medicine but I don't want him performing surgery on me if it is his first time. Same with IT. You might be certified to set up a Windows 2000 server or configuring a Cisco router but I'm not going to pay you 50,000 a year if you've never had hands on experience. But I might hire you for a lower position. You just have to work up guys. The "Get certified and make 60k" is the biggest thing that has hurt our industry. Everyone's problem is they don't want to start from the bottom but your going to have to if you want to eventually make ok money. ----Peace---- I tend to disagree with you on the point of MCSE's expecting to get 60K right out of school. I think that the worst thing that has hurt the IT market is schools like Devry pumping out MCSEs like it was going out of style. Especially in a market that has already taken a beating (mostly because of the tech bust ... all those people are looking for work). But hay, eventually that will fix itself ... If you an employer and you have the option of hiring someone just out of school or the guy that has 10 years experience for the same price which would you pick? ----Rod---- I'd like to agree with you 100% about the schools and training centers being to blame, but I can't because it just wouldn't be fair. In the local Sunday paper here, the IT job section contained the usual 4 or 5 training companies spouting the usual sales pitch you mention training companies are there to make money, they don't have a responsibility to vet their candidates to see if they deserve IT certification. What industry does that? I've found my own certification to be valuable, but that's because I haven't assumed that a piece of paper will answer all my dreams. They have got me into interview rooms and then I get the chance to tell people what I have experience of and what I can do for them. I think that many of the people who run down certification are those who are MCSEs or CCNAs and have never even plugged a patch cable into a switch and then wonder why they can't get senior positions in big companies. The problem is their attitude, not Microsoft, not the training companies, and certainly not the certification. At the moment, I'm certified in NT and thinking seriously about getting 2000 MCSE because I don't want to lose those letters after my name (even though my boss doesn't mind one way or the other if I have them) I take a lot of pride in being certified in NT, I worked hard to get it so it has value to me and I don't allow anyone to run down its significance in my presence. If more MCSEs defended the qualification, it wouldn't be devalued to the extent it is at the moment. As a final point I would like to pose a simple question that I would challenge anyone to answer. How could GENUINE IT professionals benefit from the abolition of IT certification? ----deputydave---- Hi all. I have worked in networking and systems for a long time. I got my MCSE when no one knew what it was loll. I think that Microsoft as well as other industry vendors has sold most folks short. No true Journeyman requirements are needed. I have spent many hours with minted MCSE s that basically have a great deal of theory and tech talk. This is fine but the bottom line is what you can do in a production environment when the books and the sims fail and occasionally the boys at Redmond are scratching their heads. In my opinion in order for all these "certs" as they are called to be of any value a true lab exam should be mandatory. Take a look at RHCE or the CCIE exams. No sim can reproduce the real thing. It appears that "certs" are a very large business and the training companies as well are making large amounts of money. Get a degree...that stays with you ...."certs" come and go as do companies ----Javasipper---- I think that one of the problems with certification is with the marketing the schools dish out to attract customers. Someone I know was told that some of the people who have MCSEs make up to 70K a year. Making him think that he was going to get a huge raise (basically 100%, he was making 35K at the time) just by getting the cert. The students fail or the school fail to make sure student understand that the 70K a year job is the exception to the rule. It's also after many years of experience, lots of knowledge and respect from your field, being a consultant and I'm sure, a little luck doesn't hurt either. I was approached by someone finishing a course and wanted to get a coop program with my company. I asked him to fax me a resume and the course curriculum. Well, the course curriculum said that with this course (basically MCSE, A+ and CCNA), you could become a MANAGER of IT or Support personnel. Now who the hell is going to believe that you can become a manager right out of school? If this is not misleading, i don't know what is. The guy is asking for a coop program as a network administrator, and according to his resume, he barely has any experience. How can you expect to get a job as a level three right out of school without experience? Unless you are all three levels at the same time (ie: you are the only IT employee), you can't do that, period. I have level ones in my company who want to become level twos, level twos who what to become level threes, and this guy thinks he can get in at top lever right off the bat. No wonder the "certs" don't mean much anymore, they are overly hyped from the start. ----Martin Fregeau. Telecommunication Analyst---- Martin, I think you have a very good point. The schools are screwing things up for us. I finally went out in 2000 and got my MCSE NT4 cert, I wasn't required by my company to have it, but I felt that I needed to expand my resume in case I'm not always here. It also put me at the top in IT in the company. Which wasn't really far to go. Now there am only me, the other tech left. But I take care of all three levels of service. In interviewing people to come in and join my team (of one) there are so many who want my job and have never even loaded a server, except maybe in a class, before! I worked my way up at 3 other companies and did a few years of consulting before I got the reins of a whole department. I know I couldn't have done it straight out of school. The only thing I will say that the schools have done for me was make my boss more aware of what people with "certs" can make and that helped my in getting a raise when I took over the whole thing. But I'm not making the 70k yet either. There's value there, but only with some time in the field. ----trina. I.T. Manager---- I agree. I myself do earn close to $100,000, and this has taken nearly twelve years to achieve. Having worked my way up from an office junior sat in the same office as the technical guys I managed to work my way up to my current position as Lead Consultant for a large firm. Having spent the first 6 years doing the worst IT jobs imaginable, back in the days when there was no E-mail and a lot of our out technical queries came in by telephone or snail mail. All the while barely earning $20,000 a year. So for all those how are in it for the money, your doing the job for the wrong reason and you'll never make it. For those that love the job, hard work does pay off. P.S. Regardless of what people think about the qualifications they do pay off as long as you have the experience to back it up, because whether they are easy or hard they do give an indication on what you know. But no exam can identify your total knowledge attained. ----Carl. MCSE, MCSE2000, CCNA, CCNP, CCSA, SCSA---- The MCSE certification as well as any other certifications are still and always will have some value. How much value depends on the individual and the position he/she has or is applying for. First thing to realize is that without experience there is very little that any certification will do for you. I know someone that took a course and got his MCSE NT4 but had no experience....he was able to get a helpdesk job...which was a great start for him. That is all you should expect from Certifications alone. (An Entry Level Position). When combined with experience a Certification can be a very valuable thing ----Piper---- Yes, I agree ... People who are simply able to read a cram book and memorize answers to questions and than pass the exam are only good at taking test (Good for you brain power), but let me see you prove you knowledge in the real world... ----Robert---- I think any "certs" right now is useless because of the economy right now. Employers don't want to chance people with any cert without experience. (Unless they really need you for their "quota" on staff) With the experience that I have an MCSE can only help me and not hurt me. I would say to anyone out there getting into the industry to avoid getting a MCSE now without experience, because they won't get hired at the Admin level, and to get hands-on instead and work their way up. Otherwise they just wasted their money for a sheet of paper and a cert title. ----Anthony, MCSE, MCSA, CCNA---- The time and expense to achieve these administration level "certs" are really wrong for someone starting in the industry. The marketing people make it seems as if you need CNE, MCSE, CCNA, and then you will automatically be an admin. It doesn't work that way. You have to do the time in the trenches. It's like jumping right into being a 1st Sergeant. It shouldn't happen. Maybe you proved you know enough about Windows 2000 to setup a nice secure domain. But there is way more to do the job than that and many more skills you need to know. You would be lucky to be hired to watch over 1 server. For example: What skills do you have with one of the industry standard backup systems? MSCE alone doesn't provide the skills necessary for job. Not does it try to provide them. The marketing people make you think that's all that's necessary. At a job interview, with 10 years experience the recent MSCE will show through, as it should. The MSCE right out of school will show aptitude but I would not expect anything out of that person. Privates get promoted to corporal then sergeant. Gotta go up the chain of command. As you say, MCSE should not be considered entry level. And MS knows this... the cert is designed for those with a year or more experience. As is the CCNP. Everyone seems to have forgotten that. And that's what makes it less valuable. BIG "cert" with no experience. That hurts everyone. ----Mike---- Mike, many others around here keep referring to the MCSE as being regarded as "entry level". I was just wondering if anyone had any ideas as to which "certs" are currently being considered as "premium". BTW the vendors' opinions don't count on this. Microsoft is going to continue to crow about the great value of the MCSE to the techs while at the same time going to clients and telling them that they should use Windows over Linux because Windows certified people are more plentiful and work for less money than Linux trained people. ----Bob----
MCSE, brain-dump sites, etc.
...Go after the brain-dump sites. Microsoft is a big company with a vast array of legal resources, yet it either can't or won't shut down the several Web sites that blatantly violate its nondisclosure agreement (NDA). The brain-dump sites serve only to help unqualified individuals pass exams. As a result, more certified individuals are on the market, which drives salaries down. However, a more damaging result is that employers now have no simple or sure way to tell whether certified professionals have obtained their certifications legitimately, and that has affected public perception of the certifications. Microsoft must eliminate brain-dump sites if it wants anyone to take its certifications seriously. - Devise more realistic certification exams. Exam questions that often have no basis in reality have engendered several counterproductive trends. For example, many students are turning to study guides, practice exams, and brain-dump Web sites instead of working with and learning from the actual software products. Many are beginning to see Microsoft as a company that's out of touch with what IT professionals do on the job. If Microsoft would use more realistic questions on its certification exams, students could start to rely on hands-on experience to prepare. - Offer a premium certification. Cisco Systems' Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert (CCIE) is a good example of a premium certification that draws professionals seeking the highest challenge and gives employers a way to identify the true experts in the field. Why doesn't Microsoft have a similar certification? The time has come for a "Master MCSE" or something similar that professionals would achieve after passing rigorous hands-on tests. ----Robert S.----
Bill Gates: Eleven things they did not and will not learn in school By Ben Ice, Editor The Cert Times
This has been attributed to a number of people over the years. I'll use the current plug-in (Bill Gates) because, well, because he's Bill! Love him or hate him, he sure hits the nail on the head with this! To anyone with kids of any age, or anyone who has ever been a kid, here's some advice Bill Gates recently dished out at a high school speech about eleven things they did not and will not learn in school. He talks about how feel-good, politically correct teachings created a generation of kids with no concept of reality and how this concept set them up for failure in the real world. By the way, this lesson is just as applicable to us adults. Rule 1 - Life is not fair - get used to it Rule 2 - The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself. Rule 3 - You will NOT make $40,000 right out of high school. Rule 4 - If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss. Rule 5 - Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your grandparents had a different word for burger flipping-they called it opportunity. Rule 6 - If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them. Rule 7 - Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you are. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parents' generation, try delousing the closet in your own room. Rule 8 - Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life has not. In some schools, they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as many times as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life. Rule 9 - Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you find yourself. Do that on your own time! Rule 10 - Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs. Rule 11 - Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one. I've recently been asked by several readers if I thought there were still good opportunities in the IT job market. After all, these folks are being asked to pony up the cash for expensive training and testing, whether it is boot camps, CBT's, online training, tech schools or any number of other options. Some have experience and others don't. And let's face it. In the extremely competitive marketplace we exist in, the shouting and touting regarding making oodles of money by becoming a computer expert can get louder and more confusing every day. What is the best approach to getting into the business? This is also a common thread in these inquiries. Many people without experience are learning that spending a fortune on training materials, boot camps or tech schools does not guarantee a high-paying job. In fact if you read the message boards at www.CertCities.com, you'll find more than a few disgruntled people who have taken the plunge, only to get the cold treatment by potential employers, or shoved into a level one tech support role. Hardly what they were led to believe. I won't be popular by saying this, but they should have known better. I recently looked into my local classifieds, and I didn't see ONE SINGLE REQUIREMENT for an MCSE, MCSD or MCDBA. Now, that's not to say they aren't needed, and I do believe the certifications are valuable, but employers, especially in the IT field, tend to look for a very specific skill set, such as Oracle DBA, C++, Visual Basic, Unix, PowerBuilder and so on. And they ALWAYS want a minimum amount of experience. To be fair, I decided to try a similar search with the Boston Globe, since that area is a HUGE technology center. Only 20 results came up under MCSE, only two of which were Help desk, the rest were a minimum of four years experience plus a host of other required skills. One of the help desk jobs required three years of experience, the other asked for twelve months, but required network and Compaq hardware experience. At our local ITEC show, I counted no less than twenty (20) exhibitors offering training courses. Some were CBT; many were Microsoft Authorized training Partners. There were classrooms, boot camps, tech schools, even a city bus that had been converted into a mobile training center! This reminds me of the gold rush of the mid 1800's, where with a few exceptions the only people that made any money were the ones selling tools and supplies. It almost seems as if there are as many people trying to sell training solutions as there are looking to get trained. The market is so competitive that it reminds me of the stock market. A whole bunch of people in a crowded area shouting at the top of their collective lungs in order to be heard, and each one trying to make a buck (that is, after all, the American way!) but each one just adding to the confusion. I've spoken to roofers, chimney sweeps, teachers, truck drivers, welders, students and many other trades that make up the fabric of our society. The theme is always the same. Each person wants to take advantage of the higher salaries, but they aren't sure where to start certification wise as well as training wise. Well, let me tell you, neither am I. That's not to say I can't help you by pointing you to resources that will help you make a decision. In fact I'm dusting off a reprint of an article we ran in our October 2001 issue. You'll find it at www.certifynow.co.uk. CertifyNow is rated as one of the top certification sites in Europe. If you are in the EC market and looking for great local news, reviews and information on IT certification, this easy to use and informative site is definitely a must. I'm gonna have to charge them for that one! Take the time to evaluate your situation. Go to your own local newspaper and look at the ads to see what skills are needed. Pick up some books, or check out the many free resources available on the Internet and see if you like the work. It would really suck to drop a bunch of money on, say, a web developers certification only to find out you really don't enjoy what you are doing. Or getting an MCSE only to find out that you'd rather write code. My old Agricultural Science teacher in high school gave me this advice. Whatever it is you decide to do, make sure you enjoy it, because you'll likely be doing it for the rest of your life. That may not be completely true nowadays, with all the specialized training available, but we all know it's no cake walk changing careers in mid-stream. Or, as an eloquent friend of mine once said, "Starting over sucks." Enough said. Ben Ice, Editor The Cert Times

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